Would you offer any advice for those who are approaching government since it seems to be such a large theme here? Are there any learnings that you’d want to share that others should consider if they want to go on that journey?

I certainly don’t want your take away to be that here in Canberra, we’re all trying to sell to government because that’s actually not what we’re trying to do. I think the main thing for these businesses is to become good businesses in their own right, because the whole idea is about having the freedom that a business model gives you in the sense that you’re not totally reliant on grants or philanthropy. Having government as a customer is not dissimilar to having them as a grant, as a donor. So that comes with its own challenges and issues. And so we’re not trying to replace one sort of contract instrument with another sort of contract instrument. What we’re trying to do is we’re trying to build good businesses that have products and services that government also want to buy that they’re buying anyway. So I think it’s more the other way around.

Okay. I think my focus on it just has to do with the sense of place. Is there anything else about Canberra that would be unique that you’d want to highlight?

I think the smallness is actually of great benefit in terms of our social impact investment community. This has been led very strongly by the Snow Foundation. Georgina Byron is one of Australia’s best social impact investors. They really get to this space and they really have quite a leadership role in terms of working with other corporates, other smaller family houses and and other philanthropies to really change the way philanthropy happens in this town.

Sometimes philanthropy can be the death of really good ideas and, and it was something that I saw a lot of when I first started this work.

And increasingly what I’m seeing, is it is a social impact sector lead by the Snow Foundation, with proper social impact investment in thinking of philanthropy as catalytic. How can I start, how can I work with a social entrepreneur to start something that can then sustain itself in the longterm? And I think the fact that we’re neighbours, it’s a small community, we get to know each other really well. If you’re working with these group of social impact investors in one area; young people, for instance, then it’s very likely that they’re also interested in women. They’re also interested in education. And so you start to build these relationships over time and I think that is something that is our secret weapon. Alright. Don’t tell anybody.

Small is good and local is good, right?

One of my other questions is about reinforcing the importance of networks as we go on the journey together working in the Social Enterprise Council [of NSW & ACT]. For those who are considering bringing those networks together, do you have any advice or sage wisdom from your experience here in Canberra about how to go about that process?

Well, we’re still pretty early on our journey, so I don’t want to necessarily put myself out there to someone who’s an expert on doing this. I think the main thing is just to understand what we’re trying to do and just like we do in our social enterprises where we’re always wearing two hats, we’re thinking about our customers and we’re thinking about our end users. We’re thinking about the people that we’re trying to help. I think that’s the main thing with the network is just to really be clear on who we’re trying to help, who are we speaking for? Who are we putting ourselves out there for? And just making sure that that mission is front and centre.

I think there’s certain ingredients that the best social entrepreneurs have in terms of their thinking, their mindset, the way they are in the world, the way they relate. So I’m interested in knowing about what some of your personal advice is for that and advising others. And, I also just picked up on your LinkedIn profile, the commencement speech where you talked about the danger of passion versus a clarity of purpose. What would you say to others who are going on this journey of creating impact around them in their local communities?

For me it’s about the fact that passion is something that actually scares me as a term because, it is important to have passion. So let me get that out there. But passion is not enough to sustain how incredibly difficult this work is and how important and how high the stakes are. So for me, working with entrepreneurs that are really clear about their purpose, are committed very early in their journeys to having a strong connection to the people that they want to help; if I see that I almost know straightaway as an intermediary and somebody who’s been doing this now for a long time, that that’s somebody that is going to be coachable. I’m going to be able to help to find the investment that they need and that they’re probably going to be able to have some runs on the board.

I think oftentimes, for some people, passion blinds them and it makes them less humble than they need to be.

So this work is really hard because yes, you are putting yourself out there. Most of us who are doing this work could be getting paid a lot more money doing something else and so sometimes, it’s difficult to put yourself to the side and really say, ‘no, I’m here on behalf of this purpose.’ Those are the things I can spot after my first meeting with an entrepreneur. And it’s something that in terms of Mill House, I work really hard to make sure that each cohort has people who are like that, because that at the end of the day, whether their business model itself is successful, sometimes they don’t work out.

I know that that person has such a strong clarity of purpose that they’re going to figure out how to make it happen. It might be the next business, or it might be when they do go take a role somewhere in government or as an entrepreneur inside of another organisation.

As an intermediary, that’s what I’m passionate about seeing happen.

You’re wearing really beautiful earrings here today that have the colours of the Aboriginal flag; black, yellow, and red. You’ve mentioned supporting Indigenous enterprise. I’m a honorary Australian. I’m from Canada, and I believe you’re from America. And as a black woman from America working in an Indigenous context here, what’s your perspective on that been like, for you?

To me, I think it’s all about purpose. When I speak to Indigenous entrepreneurs, you know, I call us cousins. You don’t have to be Indigenous to be a social entrepreneur and vice versa. I think that increasingly within Indigenous entrepreneurship, which is something that I’m really passionate and excited about, there is an increasing clarity of purpose. And as I’m seeing that movement happen within the black business community, I can’t help but be excited for it because obviously it’s been with people with us in the social entrepreneurial space for a while now. So I see our movements as coming together and that’s something that I’m really passionate about. I love the fact that our cohorts here at Mill House; we work really closely with a number of Indigenous businesses intentionally. In terms of the work that we do, we’re constantly thinking about, ‘well, how are we including Indigenous voices in those?’ Because, it’s important and we should. We have more in common, I think, than not in terms of our movements.

You’ve mentioned a few women-focused social enterprises that you’re working with here as well. And it’s been a personal observation of mine that there’s something closer to gender parity in the social enterprise space, but sometimes not. So I’m just interested in your perspective, if you wanted to share anything around that?

It’s something that I’m really fascinated about, and it’s part of why I’m doing a PhD in hybrid businesses and gendered use of business models. One of the things that I see in my clients is such a beautiful growth. We do a four month accelerator program, and I’ve had so many women say “you’ve given me the language of entrepreneurship.” You’ve told me I can be a business person. And I just think that that’s amazing.

The more I think about it, there’s sort of this expectation, a cultural expectation in this country that if you’re a woman and you’re passionate about something, or even if you have a community or environmental purpose that you want to achieve, that you will do that as a poor person, that you’ll be a charity, and that somehow you’ll be a martyr. [It’s like] you can’t do that as a successful business woman who draws a living wage and is also generating wealth to employ other people.

I find that fascinating because part of what I see with my clients, especially my female clients, is this struggle about, “Is it okay for me to make money doing this?” And I’m like, “Hell yeah!”

So over and over again, this keeps coming up and I don’t have all the answers. I’m really just literally on the front lines of this movement with these entrepreneurs and seeing something interesting happen with women. And for some reason, maybe it’s how I approach things, they are attracted to Mill House and are attracted to working with me. We’ve got a mostly female team at Mill House, not intentionally. It’s just how it’s worked out. But really creating a safe and welcoming place particularly for women in a cohort. We do better in a cohort, to be able to tease some of these things out.

I want to unpack that one a little later with you, Cindy, at another time. Because it’s another kind of conversation.

I think as a movement we’re there. You know, 10 years ago we were still arguing about what is social enterprise. I think now it’s about the equity and inclusion of our movement. I think it’s now about, okay, look, we’re constantly having to re-examine ourselves because we are playing with something that traditionally has been quite dangerous capitalism, right? And investment, right? And in these sort of movements, there’s just something about these things, they just create whole swathes of white men, like they just clear cut, fell forest and just white men pop up. So we need to make sure that that doesn’t happen and our movement, not that I have a problem with white men.

But how do we make sure that we’re constantly looking at this forest that is our community and make sure that it’s being cultivated in a way that looks like the society that we as social entrepreneurs are trying to build.

What a beautiful and challenging description for us out there. Thank you for challenging that!